Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by RickyBobby:
I think the days of $10,000 lightning sprint engines are rapidly coming to an end, especially with this upcoming meeting. Keeping motors stock will be the golden ticket for lightning sprints. In IL, we went to an all stock engine rule in 2012 and it has really lowered the cost of a competitive car. Heck the guy that won the most races had a $400 engine that looked like it was held together with bubble gum and duct tape. :)

Rick

Wonder if you could get me the name of his bubble gum and duct tape supplier?


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by openwheel44:
I think most knowledgeable racers agree.........on small slick tracks, the motor is not as important compared to driver skills and setup. That was all well and good when most of our tracks were 1/6th miles and small quarters that slicked off big time. Don't know about other areas but in my area......tracks are much bigger that we are running on. Big quarters up to 3/8's. Plus the promoters are tending to keep them a little wetter simply to try to keep the dust down and OFF the spectators. Hmmmmm......guess what? That's when the "built" motors started becoming apparent. Racers realized they could definitely use more horsepower. Most of us are now racing on tracks that can suck the HP right out of your car. That extra 10-20 HP started to show up more and more. then the HP war started for some. Hard tire or not..........tacky or even just big tracks let the built motors breathe. Plus on the bigger and faster tracks, there is no short supply of drivers willing to "mat it" the entire race using all the available HP. Hence....... our dilemma started. No.......we can't outlaw the really good drivers, we probably can't dictate the track size we get to run on but we sure as hell can try to get the new guy and the seasoned veteran on a level playing field motor wise.

When I raced full midgets and they went to a tire rule..........all I saw was a lot of "fresh, green" rubber going on the right rear about everytime the front runners hit the track other than practice. Tire bills started to climb dramatically. Plus.....some had "figured" out a way to run tires that were "mis-stamped." The next problem and evidently one still on going.............tire soaking. Something that is extremely hard to tech at the track. The Go Kart guys are light years ahead of us on this one. I don't know what the answer is to the tire situation. That is why I am anxious to hear what others think from each of the Midwest groups. There is a solution....we just need to find it. And find one that doesn't cost the racer more in the long run.

I'm not fighting a weight rule. I just think you need to come up with one that doesn't take you to the point of diminishing returns. Like I said........seems most of the involved groups have arrived at a minimum weight they are comfortable with. One that has kept their area racing competitive. I don't see any of them over 1000# unless you are running a motor bigger than 1000cc. We just need to find that compromise all parties can live with. Right now.......they don't appear to be that far apart.

I see a dwarf car class formulating a rules package that is debating implementing a motor rule of no motor newer than 08. Not sure this is the answer due to availability but it shows others are having the same concerns. But as new motors become available, at whatever rate, the demand for the older motors will subside. Again.........probably not the answer but it is an interesting way to approach the issue of the high horsepowered newer motors. Before you start "flaming" on me.......I didn't say I support this approach.

Don't know about the UMP Modified you are referring to but I think they are similar to our A Mods back here. If they are like our class with the same "skinny" tire.........they are killing themselves off with run away motor prices. Seems the racers are out smarting that "skinny" tire with elaborate suspension systems and driveline tricks. The more HP they can make....the closer to the front they get. To Hell with that "skinny" tire. Now.......we have the B Mod class that has stricter motor rules. It is flourishing by comparison. Go figure?

We can debate and yack on and on. I just hope the smart people we have invited to this meeting can come up with a few basic rules that are track techable on this first attempt to unify this class. If we can come up with a rules package that can be used on "National" style events.........it's still a success. We have to start somewhere.

Phil

Do you think that one of those "hot shoe racers" would be able to " MAT IT " on one of those big 3/8 mile track if they only had a 10" wide hard compound spec tire on the right rear? A stock motor could probably still do it with a very good driver, but I think that smaller tire would give away enough to put a hurt on that extra horsepower.

For sake of argument, why don't you are Mark try it first just to see how it works. Fast should not be your selling point. Your selling point should be "COMPETITIVENESS". Most racers don't know how or even care how competitiveness is achieved. They just know that it is there, and that they stand a good chance to run up front or to even win a race. That is why we race isn't it. We don't even look at second place money we just see the WIN payout and go for it.

Bet it would slow the high HP motor down quite a bit and take away the the advantage they have on them big old race race tracks you guys run on. Maybe allow 12" tires for tracks 1/4 mile and below. BUT on those big tracks cut the tread down to 10" and very hard compound.

Being able to "Flat foot" it does not mean that you are a good driver, keeping the car in your control at just a little faster than the fastest possible speed make you a good driver. Races are won by the 105% drivers.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

For all of you going to the meeting you should keep in mind clean and fast tech. With that being said i believe stock bore and stoke should be the only tech needed. You cant hide those 2 things. Nobody is going to pull the head or oil pan off a hot and dirty engine after a long day for $400. Good luck on making the rules.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by SPIKER RACING PRODUCTS:
For all of you going to the meeting you should keep in mind clean and fast tech. With that being said i believe stock bore and stoke should be the only tech needed. You cant hide those 2 things. Nobody is going to pull the head or oil pan off a hot and dirty engine after a long day for $400. Good luck on making the rules.

Would it be OK to stick a bore scope down the throttle body?
You know some race groups require an inspection plug in the block to check rods etc. It would not cost too much to put a plug or two in an engine>

I think some sidewinders groups have a tel tac that they may install on selected race cars and require that all racers supply an aux tac wire for the inspector.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

We did withe the oil pan. Put car in trailer and pulled the pan. Pain in the but. But we did it.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by Mike M 67:
We did withe the oil pan. Put car in trailer and pulled the pan. Pain in the but. But we did it.

Mike

Your engine builder could put a 3/8" pipe plug in you crank case in line with one of your rods, then you could pull the plug and with a bore scope do the same inspection. You could probably also put a plug in the top of your transmission and also view the tranny gears if you wished. This would help sooth the feelings of those annal racers amongst us. You would not even have to drain your oil.

Another way to prevent you from going through the inconvenience of tec inspection would be to replace your "DRIVER".:D

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Where there any rules made on the engines?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by SPIKER RACING PRODUCTS:
Where there any rules made on the engines?

I would guess they have a lot to mull over right now before they put any thing into the rule book. These rules are for the MALSA group. If they make sense others will follow.:11;

I am in the process of putting a demo motor together, maybe for the MMSA banquet.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by SPIKER RACING PRODUCTS:
Where there any rules made on the engines?

leaning to completely stock internals
other then oil pan and pick up

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis:
leaning to completely stock internals
other then oil pan and pick up

Wayne

Stock innards sounds great to me. Problem being how do we police such an animal. That bring us back to that same old Statement. I know they are cheating!

I am piddling with some stuff now that may make it possible to police these things right now. People want the tec quick and fast, and Nobody wants to drop their pan's in the pits after a night of racing. How do we check for aftermarket rods, pistons, cams, valves and valve springs and do it cheaply and quickly. That is the big question.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Preseason checks and sealing. If seals are broke, must re check. Just a thought

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Pat

MMSA did that for a couple of years back but got away from it, Still kinda of a hassle.

Somebody went so far as to make shear off head bolts where the hex part of the bolt would shear when torqued and another guy started making pirate knock off bolts that looked like the original legal bolts and got rich.:D

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Eh... So much for that...... Lol

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13:
Eh... So much for that...... Lol

Pat

The problem with any rule that sets specifications for the engine usually generates the same response "SO much for that idea". There is always someone that will go that extra mile to circumvent any rule, sometime they do it just because the rule is there. One of my favorite quotes comes from old Smokey Yunick, he said "Well you didn't say I couldn't".

If the world was a perfect place stock internals would be great, however this sure is not a perfect world. As things exist today to check for stock component it would require at least the removal of the oil pan, the valve cover, side covers, and the throttle bodies. That ain't no 15 minute tec. If you are not prepared to do the above stock internals will not work.

I am working on a deal right now where we could use a few well placed plugs and check all the parts above by just removing a side cover or even better a timing access plug. I think it would be possible to check for stock rods and pistons, stock valves, stock transmission gears and even valve lift and valve spring pressure if we wished.

It would require the installation of several plugs for access. These could be installed without even tearing the engine down. Then a racer could be given the option of an engine tear down and or having inspection plugs installed in his engine allowing for much faster tecs.

I would consider either method above a tad anal but other racers would not feel the same way.

I am the type of person that would want to take the advantage away from people with hot rod motors. The simple rule of just adding extra weight for the old boat anchor zx12 motors made them obsolete, as if they needed help. The methanol weight did not do much to affect racer choice because most cars where already close to that weight anyhow. I would like to see this rule reversed and make the gasoline cars carry an extra 50 pounds. For one thing it is easier to cheat with gasoline, for the other thing methanol is a much safer fuel in case of a wreck and fire. It would be prudent to persuade the racers over to methanol as the fuel of choice. If for no other reason than "SAFETY". With our 60 psi flame throwers, gasoline could be a real problem in a wreck when the fuel line is knocked loose and the fuel pump does not shut off automatically.

The secret is finally, out it does not take a ton of money to convert one of these things over to methanol, there are already economy conversions on the market and DIY people can do it even cheaper. There are even automatic fuel pump cut off devices out there.

If a driver is too good for the competition make them carry extra weight. If built motors are too fast on larger tracks go for a smaller right rear tire.

Work on making the cars competitive don't worry weather or not the little 600cc cars are faster than us. If you let one of them 600cc guys drive an upright 1000 cc car they will be hooked and probably be looking for a car.

If I was just starting out I would want to feel the class I was considering was competitive and that anyone including myself would have the chance to run up front, whether they own a $4500.00 starter car or a $20,000 super duper pooper scooper all out brand new race car. We just can't outlaw money.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Open letter or Thinking Out Loud

As the casual reader might summize I do have a hang up on Mini Sprint racing and car and driver weight. The reason is I have seen a cause and affect one has on the other. I have in the past only talked about the need to raise the weight slightly to accommodate the big old boy racer. Some groups take this another step and make rules to accommodate big old motored race cars.

Many times rules are made to in encourage a certain response from the people affected by them and to discourage responses made by other people acting outside the norm. All the time allowing for these peoples actions to continue until those affected people who are acting out side the norm see the disadvantage they are placing themselves into by following ideas outside the main stream and make a change to a more positive action and to a mainstream approach. (take a cleansing breath!)

What 99% of us want is a stock 1000cc motorcycle motor with basic stock internal parts weighing around 950 Pounds for car and driver.

Why don't we make a motor rule that goes something like this.

I will call it my Honest Dad's all inclusive "KUMBAYA" motor rule.

Rules assume 13" wheel midget chassis based motorcycle or small 4 cylinder auto engine powered race car. Drive train optional. Weight may be changed up or down with a 2 weeks notice to the racers. Name of class to be determined at later date.

#1 600cc powered car running on methanol******725 pounds Lets 75 pound kids start out racing

#2 600cc powered car running gasoline *********775 pounds (don't encourage gasoline)

#3 1000cc stock internals powered car running methanol********950 pounds

#4 1000cc stock internals car running gasoline*********1000 pounds (BAN GASOLINE)

#5 1000 cc modified internals running on methanol *****1100 pounds (knock your self out if you want a 3mm bore and 4 mm stroke do it) just stay under 1200cc's I would also advise applying for a new credit card.:D:10:

#6 1000cc modified internals running on gasoline********1150 pounds

#7 1200cc stock internals running on methanol**********975 pounds

#8 1200cc stock running on gasoline*******************1025 pounds

#9 1200cc modified running on methanol***************1100 pounds

#10 1200cc modified running on gasoline***************1150 pounds

#11 Eco tec (2400cc ?)running on methanol and self starting. (no gasoline allowed)***1150 pounds

When the car and driver signs in the driver will designate the motor size, whether or not it is stock or modified, and what type of fuel they are running.

Modified cars will be checked for weight, displacement or maximum cc displacement, and fuel content. They would be called OUTLAW MOTORS

Stock engine cars would have to under go a more rigid inspection and if caught out of specs they would lose all points and money for that race and be relegated to running by the modified rules for the rest of the season. (A racer could just declare themselves OUTLAW's and breez right through tec)

Nothing could be more fair than that.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Bear

This was the post you were probably thinking about. It started out talking about the meeting of concerned racers intent on making a better rule package for mini-sprints. It got pretty involved.

Thinking about it a little more brings up memories of when we first got into racing 600cc uprights back in the late 80's. The only track we raced at was "Thunder Valley" at little Salem. I went to one of my first smoke filled room high anxiety and even higher temper rules meetings. The main concern at the time was them new sidewinder cars. We perceived them lighter and therefore faster than the upright cars and a threat to our little corner of the world.

We wanted to exclude them from competing with us. So what we did was measure the front axle to drive sprocket distance. We determined that they were in fact several inches longer than we were because of the placement of the engine. So we make a rule for minimum axle to sprocket distance. Problem solved, sidewinders outlawed, we don't have to worry about them any more.
We had indeed Drafted a rule of exclusion to prevent sidewinders from infiltrating our ranks.

Well the next year I managed to get John Godfrey to build us a Stealth Mini sprint. We got it home started putting it together and low and behold since it was a longer wheelbase than most mini sprints at the time we did not meet our rules any more for front axle placement. We had to go back to John and get him to build us another front axle with another axle reinforcement welded to the back of the original axle to make the axle measure 4" longer and make us legal for our own class.

Had we written a rule of inclusion I would not have had to had that silly axle built. One interesting bit we still have that axle, you just couldn't tear the darned thing up.

Had we written a simple less specific rule of inclusion such as.
Min weight
Min wheel size
Motor to be in front of driver's feet
We would not have had all that problem with the placement of our front axle.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

So we would outlaw a motor because of what we read in a magazine? Tulsa allows these motors and the dry sumps to allow them to work outside of a motorcycle.

This is the post that refers to the rules meeting that you hosted. There is another post up about the rules for the Tulsa Shootout and what you thought about "their rules".

You take my comments and the comments of others much too personal. If you can come up with a set of rules that works that would be great. If you can come up with a race that pays enough to warrant travel out to Kansas I am sure Many people will change their set up if need be to go out and race with you.

I think that other racers need to know what is out there in the bushes that might crop up in the future. I think it might be a little egotistical of you to think that you can make up a set of rules and that everyone will follow suite. In any decision making process education is key to making a good decision. Just perhaps I or someone else might bring something to your attention that you did not know or was not informed about. To shut out the rest of what knowledge is out there and forge ahead with ideas that have become intrenched in ones mind may not bring about the best results.

Hey.>>If you don't like talking to the rest of us about rules and the outcome of rules, there is a neat little board out in Kansas that I am sure you would enjoy bringing your knowledge to. Most of the racers that read this board live in Indiana or Ohio. A long way from Kansas "Dorthy".

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Dad........all of our information and rough draft of rules are being conveyed to each applicable group for their input, suggested adjustments and hopefully approval at some point. But majority will rule. No one is dictating anything. Must I say it again.......

These were all decided by those at the meeting without anyone having an agenda. They were "group" decisions and ideas. We all realize things might need to be adjusted. Hence......the FIRST rough draft. My main point....no one is shutting anyone out. Seems every Midwestern group was informed of this meeting because they all had at least one representative there in person or by teleconference. Hell.....even the California group for invited to the teleconference part. This was a majority formulated FIRST rough draft. Please read that as many times as you need to let it soak in.

Personally, I could give a rat's a$$ what is done in Tulsa. I am more concerned about what is happening in the rest of the Midwest during our normal racing season. So were all the other at that meeting. My sun doesn't rise and set on Tulsa. One race does not make a season. One thing you need to keep in mind......

Mini sprints basically started in Tulsa in the early 80's. They tried to kill it with out of control motor costs. Luckily it spread quick enough to other parts of the Midwest that utilized more sane motor ethics to ride the storm out. Now.....ask yourself how many Lightning/Mini sprints are there actually in Tulsa today? How many tracks other than the Shootout run them in the Tulsa area? Or even Oklahoma?

Answer those questions and you'll understand why I don't care what Tulsa does. I care what MMSA, ILSS, MLS, WIMS, RMLSA and MALS does and wants. I respect what they all decide as a group. This is not about me or my opinion alone. This has been a group effort and still is. BTW......I am not taking anything personal. I will admit these continued conversations are getting rather stale though.

About forgot...........in case you missed in the post on the other thread.........No one is banking on what the magazines are saying about any motor. It could all be hype to sell motorcycles.....just like the new ZX-10. The BMW issue is about cost and availability.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

Quick check on EBAY asking prices for motors as of 3 Dec 2013:

2011-2013 zx10r>>>>>>>>>$3000.00-$3500.00

2011-2013 BMW 1000rr>>>>>$2000.00-$3800.00

2011-2012 GSXR 1000>>>>>>$3000.00-$5000.00

2010-2013 R1>>>>>>>>>>>$2500.00-$4000.00

They call it inflation. I like to think of it as freedom of choice and the pocket book rules.
Kind of flies in the face of some of those motors are just too expensive for the average racer this is for your own good rule. I for one can't afford a GSXR 1000. If I was left to my own devices and were not too incumbered with rules I would probably choose to run a BMW with a late model zx10r Kawasaki Ecm and wiring harness. That is what racers do. Less I forget that some racers only buy off of the rack.


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Ya think those BMW's might be a little cheaper due to the fact no one is buying them because no one will let them run? Not just our class using these type motors outlawing them from what I have been told. People start buying them, demand go up.........so will the price.

Looking at those numbers, maybe all motors above 2010 should be banned!!! LOL

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by openwheel44:
Ya think those BMW's might be a little cheaper due to the fact no one is buying them because no one will let them run? Not just our class using these type motors outlawing them from what I have been told. People start buying them, demand go up.........so will the price.

Looking at those numbers, maybe all motors above 2010 should be banned!!! LOL

Phil

Could that be considered a "restrain of trade" violation.;)
Could be because they ain't worth a hoot and wont stay together.
Give minisprintracing a chance then you will know for sure. He is probably going to beat you anyhow.

I can get you a real good deal on some "FRESH" Honda 750 motors, some of them might be minus the trans and clutch and they come right off the bike with "DRY SUMP OILING".


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Dad you beat me to it! I looked on e-bay and was going to post the same thing. So Phil If you and all the other groups are basing the BMW ban on price and availability your previous statement is just not true! It's no secret I have one and working on it to get it to run properly on the Dyno. If you seen the numbers after the first run you would invite it to run at any event! Almost ready to go to the Dyno for the second time to see if we have it figured out. I will make sure to post a copy of the Dyno run for all to see when we get it figured out. By the way when it does get figured out you will be able to put a BMW together for a lot less money then your zx10. So price and availability should not be the issue! If we're going to ban a manufacture because of cost it looks to me like we should look at Suzuki. They have always been the highest price engines to run for years. Boy that would piss some people off!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Mini

Do you still use the radio ignition key to start your race car. Just think people you could be the first racer on the block with a theft proof race car.

If the BMW works great>>> if not "OH WELL" we tried.>>> But "Can't never Did". Racing is supposed to improve the breed. Let racers that push the envelope push it as fart as they can they are after all having fun.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Some groups around here just don't want the beamers right now because there is not enough to go around. Plain and simple. If other groups want to run the bmw, nobody is going to stop them. This is a topic that can still be looked into again next year.

As for DAD, if any of you look on ebay, you'll see that DAD posted loaded numbers. For the BMWs, he is refereeing to just bare engine prices & for the other motors he is referring to complete kit prices. Right now on ebay you'll see 2011 or newer bare Yamahas and Hondas for around $1500, there are 2 bare BMWs around $2000, bare Suzukis for $2200-$2500, and there is one complete 2011/2012 Kawasaki for $3000. So really all the prices are about the same, just a lot more Japanese motors available right now.

Hi Dad, ya we had to use the key to start it but we are working with someone to reflash the ecu to eliminate that and some other things we think that's causing it to not run to full potential. Maybe it's all for nothing but really feel like I can't turn back now! I will say it again I commend all of you putting forth the effort to get a national set of rules in place!! We need stock engine rules come to a agreement on the weight issue. I think banning manufactures is just not the issues that are causing the lack of growth in this class. I think I'm entering my 20th year running one and I have seen the class at a high and definitely at its lows. I will be the first to agree that the modifying of engines has been the downfall of this class! Ask a good friend of mine (Shane Rosson) that I was about to throw in the towel on minisprints. I was one of them that was building them things like grenades and getting 60 laps out of a engine before it self destructed! Shane told me I didn't need a built engine and he convinced me to try it another year and he sent me a engine and injection set up. That next year I won more races and consecutive championships and the most important thing it became FUN again!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Here is the Gulf Coast Mod Light Rule Book engine list that can be used for 2014

Allowable engines model years 2011 and older
*Suzuki GSXR1000 model years 2011 and older
*Honda CBR1000RR model years 2011 and older
*Yamaha YZFR1 model years 2011 and older
*Kawasaki ZX10 model years 2010 and older

2013 Star Mod Lite rule book

Model years 2011 and older may be used in this program:

Engines allowed: GSXR 1000 up to 2011
Honda CBR 1000 RR up to the year 2011
Yamaha YZFR1 up to the year 2011
Kawasaki ZX 10 up to the year 2010

Have not seen the 2014 rule book for Star yet.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I wanna run a Kawasaki 300x engine... Just once...

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by RickyBobby:
Some groups around here just don't want the beamers right now because there is not enough to go around. Plain and simple. If other groups want to run the bmw, nobody is going to stop them. This is a topic that can still be looked into again next year.

As for DAD, if any of you look on ebay, you'll see that DAD posted loaded numbers. For the BMWs, he is refereeing to just bare engine prices & for the other motors he is referring to complete kit prices. Right now on ebay you'll see 2011 or newer bare Yamahas and Hondas for around $1500, there are 2 bare BMWs around $2000, bare Suzukis for $2200-$2500, and there is one complete 2011/2012 Kawasaki for $3000. So really all the prices are about the same, just a lot more Japanese motors available right now.

Rickey

We are not writing rules on IOW. We are talking about the use of more and specific rules and or the careful use of fewer and more general rules as they pertain to Mini sprint racing, and helping the class grow.

We are not going to mention the national rule and or rules specific to mega races put on by certain racing groups.

My comments and suggestions as well as others is for conversational use only. Perhaps some truth and good ideas may be gleamed from all of our responses. I have been racing mini sprints since the late 80's I think. I came in knowing I was racing people with high dollar motors and enjoyed the times when we out ran them with our stock motors.

I did not intend to cook the books. My Ebay is set up to read from highest to lowest. I simply started at the top 2013 and down motor and went down until I got to my first 2010 motor. Yep a lot of the new motors are sold Bare, There are fewer of them and the sellers have found they can make more money piece meal. A sign of the times it is a sellers market for new motors.

Because a guy invest in a new motor and attempts to develop it should he be Outlawed?? I was racing Kawasaki's when Kawasaki's wasn't cool. Come to think of it they still aren't cool, but they are pretty fast, Probably why Mark and Phil race them. Great minds all think alike, and they know what they have.

Some people will win in whatever they race and others will lose in whatever they race. That is a plain simple fact of racing. Unfortunetley the looser want to blame their performance on something else other then themselves. When all they really need to do is to pay attention, ask questions and work on putting it all together. Most racers won't be able to do it in a couple of years. Many give up first, not finding instant gratification. Racing is differed gratification, we put off today to be better tomorrow.

The way I understand ol Mini has been working at mini sprints for 20 years and is starting to figure things out. Now he wants to put forth a little effort into developing a new motor, and everybody wants to accuse him of taking advantage of them. He doesn't need this motor to be a winner, he is even taking the risk of not doing too good at first, but most people fear he will be fast right out of the box and want to shunt the development of this motor for whatever reason they can think of instead of the truth.>>>>. A simpler rule would be to outlaw Mini and let people run what they want.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86:
I wanna run a Kawasaki 300x engine... Just once...

Well THAT's taken this thread a whole other direction...

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Andy

We could make them legal, we have the technology. Just change around a few rules like Naturally aspirated (whatever that means), and drive train optional. I think Yamaha make something like that too. Check it out and report back, you may be on to something!!!

Did you listen to tat thing on the Dyno, sounds a little like thw "Novi" when that supercharger starts to wind up. We migh thave a problem with OSHA about hearing damage.:5:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Don.........I hope you realize none of this is aimed specifically at you. Your talent and knowledge speaks for itself. We all know you could turn a turd into a missile if given the opportunity. Or at least take it to the front with your driving skills.. This is about what all of the attending racing organizations decided to put on the table for the general membership to decide given today's existing information. That is why nothing has been decided until all groups get a chance to talk to their respective participants. We have been communicating by emails during the interim on small details and updates of info so all attendees are in the loop and exchanging ideas. No one is assuming a dictatorship role. At this point.....this has been a totally joint effort. I feel confident if you asked anyone that attended that meeting they would agree. Some of the discussions on this and other boards is beneficial to educate us all. Some of it is an absolute waste of energy. And yes, I am including some of my ramblings.

On another subject......We are all looking for that better mouse trap. Old Phil thought he might be on the right track with the 08 ZX-10r. Trust me, it's been a battle. Has it been worth it. No. But like you Don, I am at the point I can't give up right now. Not because I think I'm smarter.....because I am stupid. Is it faster than my competition? Not really. I don't out pull anyone but yet, no one out pulls me. We all know ZX-10's tend to consume themselves. I believe it is because of oiling issues. At least that has been my experience. Did I freak out and decide to tackle the issue with fancy remedies like dry sumps or aftermarket rods? No. My motor might puke the next time I fire it up but I now have 19 races on it, the oil filter has always been clean, I turn it about 13,200 max. It runs as good as the day I first fired it up with only routine maintenance. I have run this motor on small bull rings up to big 3/8ths miles. Other than a Rosson alky system and oil pan, it is straight out of a bike. No blueprinting, no internal modifications, NOTHING. The main thing....I have got to this point with $42 dollars worth of hoses and fittings and reworking the Rosson/Hench oil pan with a bolt-in baffle system to improve the oil system that is on the motor. NOT a $1600-$1800 dry sump system. Something tells me these motors some say require a dry sump to make them live......there might be an easier and cheaper solution. IF not........is that particular motor worth it? But obviously I don't make a living reworking motors, rebuilding motors or selling aftermarket components.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

The zx10r is like my prostrate. It doesn't have an oiling problem, It has a piston to cylinder blow by problem. The Dry sump is used to address the problem of "puking oil" whenever you keep them at high RPM for a long period of time. I used to vent the breather to my ex pipe to try and pull a vacuum on the crank case. Well after about 10 laps of racing the smoke would just start rolling out of the exhaust. At first it worked pretty good because the guys in back would back off to try to be able to dodge the up coming explosion. They finally figured out that wasn't going to happen,and all that smoke became embarrassing to Doug and myself. If they would throw a yellow flag for a couple of laps the smoke would go away and everything would be fine for the rest of the race.

Next we tried several dozen different breathers some worked better than the others but none were very successful. I can remember Mark coming over to Bloomington and saying he had found the secret, only to throw oil all over the place and drop out.

Zx10r's have been a challenge to me and many other racers. While doing the dry sump thing I also did some testing, to try to find out what my problem was. I installed an electronic vacuum sensor and noted the crank case vacuum in the old Kaw. I used an ultra high tec Roots type scavenger pump mostly found on NASCAR and INDY cars. Up to 10,000 RPM that thing would pull the crankcase down to 10 to 12 inches of mercury. At 11,000 the crank case was at 0 by 12,000 the crankcase was on the positive side and rising. By using the dry sump and larger oil tank (more weight) we could eliminate the blow by problem and keep my drivers feet dry.

The Gen 4 Kawasaki has supposedly addressed this problem by paying particular attention to boring the block by installing bore plates and offsetting the bore to the thrust side of the piston, (what Chevrolet did in their old 327 ci engines) many years ago. We will only be able to tell if it works by racing it.

When Kawasaki did all this improvement on their engine they also designed the engine to work better in a race bike. They stacked the engine on top of the transmission to raise it in the bike to improve handling. The oil pan on the Gen 4 is a good 12" tall. the oil pick up is in a deep well to the left of center, great for a race bike. They went so far as to put the oil filter in the pan itself separate from the crank case. They cast oil galleys into the oil pan and send the oil around and around until it finally gets to the crankshaft. Talk about a mess. They weren't thinking about being dominate in mini sprint racing just motorcycles. If we want to use them we are going to have to do some development work on them to make them work in our cars.

If the other makers decide to follow Kawasaki idea and stand their engines up Mini Sprint racers and several other classes racers are going to have some real problems with motor placement.

Remember the post I did on your board once.

"Cutting off you nose to spite your face" If you guys aren't careful that is exactly what you are going to do.

Andy I hope in jest brought up the Kawasaki 300x jet ski motor. I couldn't find any for sale but they are out there I am sure, other manufactures have similar motors, but that would require a drive shaft. Don't limit your options with rules. "I love competition" it bring out the best in all of us. If crazy guys like Mini and me want to experiment how is it going to hurt you or your racing group. These motors don't live for ever, the best 2010 motor you find on Ebay is going to have 10,000+ very hard miles on it, and you will spend $4000.00 dollars having somebody rebuilding it for you and it will still be a grenade.

Did I tell you about the used engines I bought off Ebay this summer. After blowing them up I did a little closer inspection. What I found was the left #1 main bearing was way out of round. They probably hit something very hard crushed, the gen cover, bent the flywheel and twisted the block out of square. The sellers replaced the cover and flywheel and probably did not even suspect engine damage. I SURE DIDN'T.

After the fact and after buying some expensive small hole bore gauges and doing a much closer inspection did the problem show up. If you used plastigauge to check the main bearing clearence it was dead on but checking the bore front to back they were as much as .003" too large. That is where my oil pressure was going after the engine warmed up.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

My little hose system eliminated all my oil puking issues also. Cheap fix.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by openwheel44:
My little hose system eliminated all my oil puking issues also. Cheap fix.

Phil

Tell us about it, What did you do.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

[QUOTE=DAD;359111]Phil

"Andy I hope in jest brought up the Kawasaki 300x jet ski motor. I couldn't find any for sale but they are out there I am sure, other manufactures have similar motors, but that would require a drive shaft."

The same search where I found the pic, there's a blog about 300x motors, brand new from the factory $4199 less throttle bodies.
Another site sells 15F long-blocks (1500cc, nomally-aspirated) for $1995 with a rebuildable core ($3695 new from Kawi). I'm not trying to send this thread off on another tangent (Andy started it anyway ;)) but has anyone ever explored plugging one of these into a Midget chassis? They almost look tailor-made for that application...
I guess stirring the pot is a Jones thing; I plead guilty, and will now back away from the stove...

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Unless you ran that jet ski motor in an outlaw midget class, don't most organizations have rules about turbos and supercharging?

Dad..........First, I fabricated some bolt-in baffles that were placed in the Rosson/Hench oil pan. Keep the oil from sloshing so much and closer to the pickup. I then removed the valve cover emission control reeds and drilled a series of holes in the cover below them to vent the top of the motor better. Experience showed me that these motor place all the oil in the top end at high RPM with only the timing chain galley as a way to drain back to the pan. I then came up with a 1/2 hose system to tie the emission control outlet together, then tie them to a single 5/8" hose and route it to the rear right side of the oil pan so the excess top end oil would be forced through that system directly to the oil pickup area. You should see the different of oil levels through the site glass when I ran the motor just at 3500 rpm (on the stand) with this system versus without it. Before the oil would basically disappear with any appreciable rpm. Imagine the difference at 12,000 rpm. At least now, I am pretty sure I know where my oil is at high rpm's.......where it should be and not filling every cavity of the head or top end or even the tranny breather. I figured at best, when the motor was above 12,000 rpm there might be 3/4"-1" deep oil in the oil pan and a pickup that was about 1/2" off the bottom. So with a little slosh (bouncing, cornering, etc.).......sucking air. I tried various means of venting the motor but ended up with a pretty simple system. On the left side of the motor (alternator cover), I fabricated a 1" bolt-on stub to put a hose on it and run it up to my oil breather tank mounted on the fire wall. That tank lets any oil that should go up that far drain back to the vent on top of the tranny. My breather tank has a small K&N filter on it and is baffled inside. If it were full, it might hold a half of a quart of oil. At this point, no oil gets up there to speak of.....just oil fumes. Shane Rosson sent me a little tube that extends out of the motor case down into the oil pan that was overlooked when they manufactured the oil pans. This little vent/orifice is evidently cast into the original pan. I went ahead and put it in on my motor. I didn't on my son's motor. His motor incorporates the above described system minus that tube and he doesn't puke any oil either. Shane seems to think I could start pulling some of my concoctions off and not do some of the trivial stuff I have done. He might be right, but I don't have the guts yet. I will run with what I have. It may be crude. Definitely not Hi_Tech. So far it works and it's cheap.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Hey Phil,

I know it was not aimed torward me. Hell I'm sure no one even knew I was working on a BMW at the time. Everyone is using the excuse that its the cost and availability for the purpose of the ban. The availability is there if you look hard enough. Now lets look at the cost aspect... I would like to know how many 08 ZX10 engines are laying around on the floor of guys garages with little windows built in the front of them! How much has that specific engine COST everyone! I had 2 blow in 4 races and had to buy a 3rd to stick in the car just to sell it to a poor guy in Austrailia! My calculator says that cost me about $7,500 in engines for 4 races. So theres a lot of ways of looking a cost of a engine. The way I look at it if we should have put a ban on that engine 4 years ago and we would all have a lot more money. Maybe this thing will be just like the zx10 and have the same issues. Then again maybe you can race it for 3 seasons and throw it away. You won't know if you ban it. If it does end up being like a ZX10 then please do ban it! My wife would even thank you! But hell lets give it a try first!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I appreciate everything you are saying Don. Really I do. But it's not going to be up to me, it's going to be a group decision. Hopefully, they are reading and considering. I will say this, from watching AMA superbike racing, I don't see BMW's kicking anyone's a$$. I have to admit, I think it would be interesting to see one run in our class just for comparison. To put this deal to rest. But let's face it Don, you ain't the best salesman to push the product. With you it's 80%-90% driver/setup man and maybe 10%-20% motor/equipment. It would be much better test using a guy that is competitive and but not a consistent winner to run one and see if it really "ups" his game. There is no way in Hell any of us want to give you a chance to up your game.........LOL

Banning the 08 ZX-10 would have saved me a bundle also. LOL Where were all these guys a couple of years ago?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Hi Phil, Well if nothing comes of this debate at least we can look back on it and have a good Laugh! You shouldn't talk much about how much it is driver and how much it is engine! LOL! Hell when I see you finish any where other then first I just say to myself he must have had a mechanical failure! I think all are luck comes from the great car number we have chosen! LOL!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

I bought up the hose deal a couple of years ago with the return hose to the pump to Shane and Marc Salvisberg the guy over at Factory Pro in a post on Apex speed. Didn't really help me. Breathing any place but the trans hump does seem to help a bit. The inlet for the factory breather is over inside the clutch cover on the back side. Since we only turn left a lot of oil get over into the egg beater clutch and pumped up into the trans engine breather. The return line is the one that runs to the pump pick up from the back of the motor and when these things start building up crankcase pressure the oil can't get back to the oil pan and that is when they start puking.

Let me know when all the smoke clears and they haul away all that fertilizer you guys are spreading. I forgot what I was going to say.

Honest Dad himself:6::6: